The Guitar Gallery Forums - The Guitar Legacy of Matsumoku

And yet still labelled as MIJ? I'm not saying that this isn't the case, but I'd be a little surprised at such misleading practices from a Japanese manufacturer (although tbh I've heard of worse things).

That white is very classy. Nice score!

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Thanks. It's not quite white though. More of an egg custard color

Was frequent pratice back in the day, started in the 70s when Japan Co sent parts to Korea for assembly to avoid export charges applied to Japan fro western countries.

Korea kept buying Japan surplus parts and shipping no name unbraded instruments still with Made in Japan on them. All the parts are made in Japan. no lies were told.

I have several Univox tube amps from the early 70s, all Japan parts but assembled in the US and sold by US distributor. They dont say made in the US, they are clearly marked made in Japan.

Plently of books, articles and collector knowledge out there to read up on.

Im giving you my opinion on your bass after 30 years of collecting these. Take what you want from it.

Since we will most likely never know your bass origin since Matsumoku was closing shop and selling all machinery and remaining stock to Korea, its safe to assume they did not assemble it since they were not assembling the Westone brand at the time either. Mat made parts but assembled in Korea and we do have info on those.

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Dealer slick is a single or multiple page "ad" usually covering a single model, series, or sometimes new additions. Often handed out to potential buyers. This should help explain.

http://www.matsumoku.org/cm_models/?s=slick

I suspect the color of your bass would be Olympic White. Also used on the CS-400.

Like I said, I have seen sellers claim the B&G was a CSB-400 but without documentation I'm not convinced.

I'm pretty sure there were no "Russia specific" models. The primary markets were Japan, Europe and the US. For instance the Leopard series was never officially available in the US but was in Europe. Primarily LP models with the open book headstock that would be a Gibson trademark infringement in the US.

I doubt there were really any "budget" lines of pickups. Just different. For instance the MMK45 Protomatic V was found on midrange models but in my opinion sound much better than the Classic Power pickups found on the higher end PE-R80.

Although it is plausible I'm not completely convinced the model number reflected the price. That would mean the CS-350 was worth much more than a PE-R60.

Be wary of some of the info you find online. Some of it is merely conjecture.

con·jec·ture
/kənˈjek(t)SHər/
noun
A) An opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.
B) Tripe usually spread by uninformed sellers (the B&G was a CSB-400).
C) The embryonic stage of a rumor.

Sometimes the best way to determine what something IS is not by guessing what it COULD be but by eliminating what it ISN'T.

I can see some clueless seller coming across this thread wanting to sell a CSB-400 and listing it stating it is the same as a CSB-B&G made from leftover Japanese parts in Korea only available in Russia. Once listed it then becomes fact based on fiction.

The most logical explanation is it was made just before Matsumoku closed its doors for good. AFAIK SLM's Westone/Electra were the only confirmed labels where leftover Japanese parts were shipped to Korea when Matsumoku closed, not before. I heard this from Tom Presley himself. He pulled one out and the neck plate had "Westone" on it and a serial number but no "Made In Japan" on it. E. G. Some early Korean Westones/Electras had Japanese necks on them. Maybe someone will be able to expand on this. Some Aria Pro II models were still made in Japan after Matsumoku closed its doors and the higher end models are still produced in Japan.

Interesting. Now things often work the other way round, with parts being manufactured abroad (e.g. in China), and then sent to be assembled in a more prestigious country (e.g. Italy for fashion items), which subsequently lends it's name to the "made-in" label.

It strikes me that in most cases the quality of the component parts will be more important than the assembly. But I don't really know what goes into putting a guitar together. What actual difference would it make for a guitar to be assembled in, say, the US vs Mexico, if the parts for both versions mostly come from the same factory in China anyway? Does the quality of the resulting dish lie with the ingredients, or the hand of the chef?



As I said, I wasn't doubting your opinion, just surprised that this should be the case. I'm here to hear the opinions of those who know vastly more than me. I'd be an idiot to then ignore the very opinions I've asked for.



Here, though, Crusty seems not to be of the same opinion.



So I'm not really sure what to think. Is it safe to assume anything?



OK, so it's kind of a "flyer" for specific models or lines. Thanks.



Sounds logical. Thanks



I take it the PE-R60 is far superior?

It would also mean a huge difference in price between top end and cheaper models.

The more I think about this, the less convincing it seems. Perhaps some models coincidentally sold for the same price as their monikers? I think it would be simple enough to establish if there's any truth to the theory simply by looking at what 60,000 yen could have bought you in the 1980s, vs 350,000. I mean, ¥350,000 now is over USD $2K. Even allowing for inflation, that doesn't seem a likely price for a guitar that can now be picked up for a less than $350. Meanwhile ¥60,000 today is about $400.



Of course.



Unfortunately this is how a lot of journalism is done today. A 25 year old checks a few wikipedia entries and youtube videos about a topic or events that occurred before they were born. The resulting "history" is often unrecognizable to anyone who lived through the actual era. But it goes into the NY Times or wherever and becomes fact. Of course, there was always an element of this to journalism, and indeed even the academic study of history, but I have some faith that sources were once a little more reliable than social media.



Yes, I like your method more.



I saw reference to the idea of APII Russian-market-only models elsewhere (maybe on a thread here, not sure), which is what planted the seed of the idea in my mind. However, even as I wrote it, there were doubts forming. Not least of which the fact that, yes, the Soviet-aligned bloc did share products, however most of these would have originated from Russia and then been distributed to other countries like Vietnam. Meanwhile, Japan was fully aligned with other Capitalist countries and probably didn't do a huge amount of trade with Russia, much less design Russian-market-only products.

Again though, yet more conjecture.

Today I saw a CS-43 Beat Master for sale. Serial number dates it to 1988 (and I've seen models from '89 online too). But it said Made in Japan on the neckplate. Was the Beat Master a high-end model, and therefore actually made in Japan (just not by Matsumoku)? Or is the offshore assembly scenario described by Frenchy the more likely explanation?

Knew you were going to throw this back at me after I read Crusty's response...

I did mention this for several reasons:



We dont know the parts on your bass come from Matsumoku. we only know they were made in Japan. Nothing tells us its Mat made. The Vantage line moved mid 1984 to another Japan plant.
Matsumiko also made certain Ibanez models.

Your bass parts could have made by Matsumoku or by another Co. We dont know what went on with the production at the end of 86 and 87. We dont know if your bass was assembled in Japan or not.

We just dont know.

We do know that most of the equipment was sold to Korea and that the Westone line that were produced by Matsumoku were also shipped to Korea for continued production.

Who was producing Aria Pro II from 1985-1990 ... I dont know... Could have been 2-3 or God knows how many places.

I do know that Cushin were very big during these years and seem to be associated with lots of brands. Did they make some Aria' s during this time frame ... Your guess is as good as mine.

Like I said. Amazing deal for 74.00$ on a Japan made bass of this quality but from where in Japan it was made or where it was assemble is a mistery.

The Aliens made it !

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Thanks Frenchy, yes that all makes sense. Given the date, there's absolutely no reason to assume that this bass is a Matsumoko at all. Might be, might not.

How do other Japanese manufacturers of the time (and price level) compare to Matsumoku? I'm assuming that Matsumoku didn't gain the reputation that it has now purely on innovation alone, but also build quality. So presumably most other manufacturers rarely achieved the same levels of quality?

Until I get to play it through an amp for more than the few seconds that I did in the store, I won't really know what I think of it. Although the feel of it is certainly nice so far.

It is only rumor that Ibanez made ANY Aria Pro IIs. The name Ibanez was owned by Hoshino Gakki, the musical instrument company (gakki means musical instrument) and was autonomous from other manufacturers including Matsumoku. Hoshino Gakki was and still is one of the largest guitar manufacturers in Japan.

Yes, the tooling and machinery at Matsumoku was sold when it closed it's doors but tho whom is up in the air. Even more so if Japanese components were assembled in Korea.

Shiro Arai Co. has always held high standards and labeling a Korean (even partial) guitar Made In Japan strikes me as unlikely. In the case of Westone/Electra using Japanese parts in Korea this I can believe. I heard it from Tom Presley's mouth when we spent a weekend together in Jasper Indiana back in the early 2000s. He even showed me one along with the original briefcase full of Spectrum prototype parts he took to Japan. The neck plate on the Japanese/Korean hybrid did not say Matsumoku or Made In Japan on the neck plate. This hybridization was an SLM decision, not one made by Matsumoku.

In the days before Matsumoku, Chushin Gakki, Hoshino Gakki, Yamaki, Terada and Kasuga had their rise for example Japanese guitar brands would spot purchase from smaller shops. Some made necks and/or bodies, others electronics, others hardware etc. and they were assembled in house. Source: Michael Wright Different Strummer.

Matsumoku made Aria Pro II until they closed in 1987. Some say February of 87, others later in 87.

Here's a pic of the neck plate on a 1988 XR Series. Notice anything missing?



If we can't be certain this CSB-400 was made by Matsumoku do I need to move this thread to Un-identified? If we can't be certain any Aria Pro II was made by Matsumoku (unless it says Matsumoku) that would mean this site is simply spreading the very rumors and unsubstantiated claims I abhor.

I have no idea how these rumors are spread and then become gospel.

The natural progression is speculation, hypothesis, theory and finally fact. In that order.

I know there are some people who have been researching Matsumoku for a long time. I have only been at it for just over 40 years since I got my first in 82 and will never attain the level of Expert. In those years I've learned to shy away from speculation, discount rumor, take other's claims with a grain of salt and buy stock only in facts.

Is it possible this CSB-400 was cobbled together in Korea? Yes. Possible but unlikely. It is more likely it was one of the last off the line. I've not seen any indication any other company made Aria Pro II guitars during the Matsumoku era.

I'm a tough sell. It took 3 pages of a thread to convince me there was such a thing as a set-neck PE-450. Once I saw the pics I was convinced and stood corrected. Same goes here. Prove me wrong and I'll concede.

OK

I give up.

Its what ever you guys decide it is...

All I was trying tyo say is this particular instrument happens to fall in the time frame that anything is possible. make of it what you want.

I still say its the Aliens.

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