The Guitar Gallery Forums - The Guitar Legacy of Matsumoku

Friends I have an issue with the "bracing" in my Epiphone Acoustic. Initially, I noticed a very small "sag" in the Top...run my hand over it and couldn't feel the sag/dip. Yesterday, it looked longer and more pronounced. I could feel the sag/dip and it was larger/longer....anyway, after a discussion with a Friend...I loosened all strings and took them out of the bridge. I reached inside and my hand just brushed over the back cross brace as I was reaching in the box to feel around the Top's bracing.....the back brace was "totally" loose...like it had just been placed into position. I felt around the Top"s bracing...yet I already knew after the discussion with my Friend the bracing had come un-glued. The good news was the sag/dip in the solid spruce Top came all out after just a short time 10-20 minutes. My question is: did Matsumoku use Hide Glue on the construction of the Acoustic Epiphone guitars. It is my opinion that the "Top" will need removed and all bracing re-glued....both Top & Back...my Lifelong Friend, who is one the most intelligent individuals I have ever met (and I have been around several blocks, several times) believes this is most likely Hide Glue. His suggestion was, re-glue all braces (nothing is broken) and place the Top back on and play it for another 36 years. Also, why did this happen....was it MY fault?....I do not possess the skills and even if I once did.... I am unable to perform this work. Which in my Friend's opinion is a relatively simple operation. Any opinions, suggestions concerning this 36 year old ....one owner....my 1st and only Acoustic ever owned Guitar would be sincerely appreciated by this OM

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Searching for the "Gold" in what someone described as "the Golden Years"......

There is a fairly easy way to test if hide glue was used. You have to be able to reach in to feel ( and hopefully see) a formerly glued surface. Hide glue is clear to slightly yellow in color. It is also a bit brittle. If the glue looks white or off white they used a white glue like Titebond. If you get a rage and dampen (not wet) it with very hot water and rub it on the former glue joint, some of the glue should soften. If you feel it, it should have a slight tacky feel to it. If so you have hide glue and you are in luck.

I am afraid I don't agree with your friend about removing the the top and re-gluing all the braces. Just because one brace is loose does not mean the others are as well. Removing a top is major surgery that should only be done by a pro or someone with a lot of experience.

I would get some good lights. A string of the white mini Christmas tree lights work great. With them inside the guitar, examine the top with a mirror. If you think you see a loose brace, reach in and carefully flex it. Does it move? In a way you are lucky in that you have a brace you know is loose to compare it to.

Now on repairing the brace: If it is hide glue, you are in luck. Hot hide glue (not the liquid kind that comes in bottles) will dissolve old hide glue so you don't have to remove it. If it is a white glue you have your work cut out for you to remove as much of the old glue as possible.

Depending on where the brace is loose, may have to buy or borrow a long throat clamp. You also will have to make a caul from some scrap wood that has a groove in it slightly wider and longer ( but not as deep) than the loose part of the brace. Depending on the clamp design, a block of wood with some felt on it will be needed to protect the guitar top also. If you can't get a long enough clamp, you can make a gluing brace using a turnbuckle and some scrape of wood. The idea being that the turnbuckle goes inside the guitar and pushes against the back and top to hold the brace in place. I find that you want a couple of fairly heavy books on top of the guitar to stop the turnbuckle from distorting the top. Go slowly and carefully when using a turnbuckle clamp to avoid harming the top or the back.

Good luck.

RSBBass can't Thank You enough , but I will say it, Thank You! You must know my Friend to really appreciate him..he was going to bring a camera so we could look inside the box but after the Back brace was "completely" unattached, I called him back and told him he was Correct about the Top brace and looking inside was not necessary! This Pleased him very much. Concerning his approach to removing the Top, he is "fanatically" thorough in his approach to things. He is very skilled in Woodworking, these are just a few of his credentials, Musician/Master Degree in Chemistry/ Practicing Attorney/Master Carpenter and many more...plus very opinionated! Ha. NO! I will NOT even Attempt this! I will get a Pro Luthier..if need be send it off to One I totally trust! Upon further inspection of the Back brace, there appears to be no glue or just a very narrow strip of glue (very light clear) on the bottom of the Back brace. The Back of the guitar appears to have no glue at all. So, your assumption that maybe only one of the Top braces is loose may be correct! The glue around the bracing strip (about .375-.500 of an inch wide/tall) that circles the Back to Side joint, appears to be clear/very light white in color...as there is some that has bled over onto the Back and Sides of the joint! (I know this strip has a name) So, I may be Lucky! Which doesn't occur very often! But, RSBBASS rest assured I will NOT ATTEMPT this repair, though I certainly appreciate your advice. I have been on some Luthier's web sites and read how they reattach bracing and none of them removed the Top or Back...they performed this without removing the Top or Back..exactly as you stated ...your knowledge is one of the Great advantages of being a Member of this Community! Please allow me to say THANK YOU again!

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Searching for the "Gold" in what someone described as "the Golden Years"......

Initially I came back to my Post to ask another question. Since my Guitar is irreplaceable, 36-37 years of "aged" Rosewood and spruce...meaning I have played and played this Guitar since the day I took it to the crib.
I now want to say this:
The Epiphone FT-350 El Dorado LIVES !!!! 1/8/13
RSBBass was correct! One Luthier used a pot of hot hide glue and had the tools to re-glue the Top's culprit. Part of the X brace came unglued. Now, I also used another Older Musician/Guitar tech/Teacher to re-glue the "tone bar" "sound post" which I called a brace.....he corrected me each time....Kept telling me it was not a brace, it was like a Violin's sound post.....I shut my mouth and listened....his initial assessment was it wasn't worth repairing since it had no value. There she sat on his workbench with Solid Brazilian Rosewood.....not from a stump or a root of the Rosewood tree but a one piece solid Rosewood back that is not even available today! I left it with him ...overnight...the next morning he phones me and starts praising and saying why Guitars from this era are so desireable. The WOOD! Duh? I for sure do not have the knowledge or Musical talent he possesses but I knew this! When I arrived at his shop....he was playing the old Matsumoku Epiphone flat top and he was good....his Jazz skills were excellent as were his flat picking Bluegrass licks. Finger style or with a pick he could play! Let's put it this way .....he completely changed his "tune" after the re-glue and neck adjustment. It now sounds better than it ever has!! The complete "fix" cost me $45.00....again $45.00 total. $25.00 for Top X brace re-glue......$20.00 for the Back "sound post/tone bar"....and neck adjustment!
I'm not sure of the Date of my original Post.....but my mind went through many changes..my Number of Guitar ownership has increased by one to now 5 Guitars! Through this ordeal I purchased a New....brand New Acoustic Dreadnought.....solid Mahogany sides and back....solid Spruce Top....Rosewood bridge and Fingerboard. Tusq Nut & Saddle.....should be the giveaway to the Brand of Guitar I purchased....had a set up done...$20.00! Excellent tone..fit & finish (semi-gloss) Satin. My 1st new out of the box guitar in 36 years! It hurt me bad to get off those $$$$$$$$....I am a "tight", frugal, OM....however you wish to describe me, but the older I get, the harder it is for me to spend $$$$$$$$!!
One thing remains certain though, I had to have an Acoustic Guitar I liked! Now I have two....Rosewood & Spruce...Mohogany & Spruce that I am completely satisfied with and neither say Mmmmmmartin, Gggggggggibson, Ttttttaylor or any high end $$$$ name on the Headstock! Thank You to RSBBass for your expert advice and anyone else who was quietly wishing me luck!!

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Searching for the "Gold" in what someone described as "the Golden Years"......

One other thing! I purchased a guitar humidifier.... Got another one on order....yet, I believe I am going to purchase a whole room humidifier! Right now The Relative Humidity is 47%.......every Guitar manufacturer I have read...stated 45-55% was sufficient! Our Midwest winters are never the same ....last year(2011) there was no Winter....this Summer was a different story....we suffered through 100-106 degree Temps. With desert like conditions! There were 4 inch wide cracks in my yard and the grass was all Brown! This winter has been cold but the Relative Humidity was never below 43% in my house.....I had a pot of water boiling while keeping all Guitars in the Kitchen! Got it up to 47%.
So, I believe it was my fault for not maintaining the proper conditions in my home for my Guitars!

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Searching for the "Gold" in what someone described as "the Golden Years"......

I am glad your guitar is back up and playing.

A couple of notes on humidity and humidifiers: Humidity is important. Having consistent, or slowly changing humidity is almost as important as maintaining a good level (around 40% is good). Instrument humidifiers can be a real aid but have to be used correctly or they can cause more problems than they solve. Most instrument humidifiers have some kind of a medium that you wet before you place the humidifier in the guitar sound hole or case. They should be damp, not wet. Wet ones can cause mold. The humidifiers that go in the case are better as they catch an essential aspect of instrument humidifiers, they only work properly if the instrument is in a case (just about any kind of case is fine). Also, you have to keep up with them. if you use them, let them dry out and then remember to wet them down again, you will be putting your guitar through several fast cycles of changing humidity. This can lead to all kinds of problems. All in all, I prefer a room humidifier. They give more consistent results and are good for you as well as your guitar.

A quick question: I have never heard of a flat top acoustic guitar, like yours, having a real sound post. On a violin they are a round post that runs between the front and the back of the instrument just behind the treble side of the bridge. They are held in by pressure and not glue. What is your post like?

Excellent!
Glad to hear she's back to playing form.

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Neither had I. After doing some research I believed the bar to be referred to as a "tone" bar? Yet, Ron kept insisting to me it was a "sound bar" / "sound post"....I called it a brace and like I said, he kept correcting me....In retrospect, He did say it was "like" a Violin "sound Post" but definitely not a "brace" ! It has a chamfer/bevel on each end where it connects with the side/rim of the box. He said the chamfer/bevel assisted in creating the tone/sound of the instrument! The bar that was loose on the Back may be visible in the pictures of the Guitar I have posted on this site. It is the one right by the Blue label! Directly under the sound hole. Now, I am not as knowledgeable as You or Ron...but he did make the sound of that Guitar like it used to be...I think I was having troubles before they became obvious to me!
Also, if 40% Relative Humidity is OK....then I really do not need anything ( room humidifier or guitar humidifier.... Because my home never gets below 40%! I think my Wife had placed my Guitar to close to the "return" vent on my Heating device! I didn't like it there, yet She can be hard to reason with....I am too old to take the hassle of listening to her rave. I am a retired OM just trying to live out the short time I have left. You have been a great deal of help and I certainly wish you were available to perform the work....because I had to use two different Men....one was "snowed in" and The other did not have the tools to re-glue the Top's loose X brace.

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Searching for the "Gold" in what someone described as "the Golden Years"......

After looking at the photos of the guitar on this site. One is under the Epiphone section. The "brace" in question is the one to the bottom of picture as you would reach to the lower bout of the body. On the 2nd picture...in the the very corner you can just barely make out the chamfer/bevel I am referring to. I am editing this post after doing some research on Acoustic Guitar Bracing.

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Searching for the "Gold" in what someone described as "the Golden Years"......

Guys I got a little bit carried away last night....sentimental actually. I am aware I write too many words in a Post.! I sincerely apologize to all! Came back today to give my Thank You to RSBBass & Barry for his kind words. Also, I miss hearing from "Squid Head"...I certainly hope all is well with him!

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Searching for the "Gold" in what someone described as "the Golden Years"......