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PostPosted: Tue 01 Sep 2009 04:34 PM 
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Virtuoso
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Have any of you forum refinishing experts ever done a repair of a crazed/alligator finish? I have a non-Mats guitar repair that I'd like to do one rainy day in the future.

The guitar is a 1991 Ovation Elite 1868 with natural finish. She's a beauty with a 5-piece neck and plays like an electric; great action and a amazingly good sound both acoustically and amplified.

The problem is that I bought it from a seller in Florida and I guess the humidity was too much for the finish. There is one straight line stress crack running from below the bridge to the bottom edge. That's pretty easy to fix. However, just where your right arm/elbow rests on the top, the finish has crazed quite a bit, maybe the size of a large grapefruit. Humidity + sweat? It's only really noticeable when the light hits it at an angle, then it 'prisms' and looks like shattered glass.
These are general pix of the guitar. I don't have specific ones of th crazing, but you at least get an idea of the general finish:
Image
Image
Image

The finish is a catalyzed polyester so the drop fill technique used on most Mats finishes will work on the the straight crack, but any suggestions about how to tackle this particular condition?

Thanks!

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Last edited by Barry on Tue 01 Sep 2009 08:10 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 01 Sep 2009 05:07 PM 
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WOW! I used to have one exactly like this. :o

It had a 5in crack just to the right of the bridge, parallel to the strings.


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PostPosted: Tue 01 Sep 2009 08:07 PM 
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Yeah, but did you repair the cracks? :wink:

Here's a couple of grab shots taken inside. It's still hard to see the full extent of the crazing but I think you get the idea:
Image
Image

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PostPosted: Wed 02 Sep 2009 12:22 AM 
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Beutiful ovation Barry.

Look...to me at least,and i´m by no means any expert,there comes a time when working on finishes when there´s a thin line between resurection and refinish.
As you might know i very rarely respray a guitar(Done it once TBH,then again i´m very familiar with how to through what i do for a living where we do on a regular basis)

In essence i think that as the amount of cracks go up you kind of reach the point of diminishing returns.
Ie,it turns into less work to say to hell with it and respray the axe as that will simply be the shortest way out and become the least amount of work.

Now there are those that actualy cherish a crazed top finish like yours,and to a degree i can buy into that on a vintage axe.
A for instance cracked up finish of a vintage paulie can be a beutiful thing.

One often less known fact when working with finishes is the heat induced when using a buffer-as in a real electric buffer.
In fact,as some have learned,you can actualy burn the paint if you work an area to long,but more importantaly one often forgotten factor with a buffer/die grinder is that the heat induced will to a degree "melt" the topcoat.

When working with a buffer tool that is an art that by time becomes sort of second nature as you grow into it,but at the same time it indeed IS a fine line.

I´ll put it this way,if those cracks have become some sort of pet peeve to you i at least would have sanded the finish down almost to bare wood and resprayed it.
Point in case being that it would be the route of the least amount of work-yeah...i´m a lazy bugger.
In doing so..be adviced as to WHICH type of topcoat to apply.
Within the industry of guitars there´s a LOT of hype..and i to a degree agree...nitro vs synthetics aso


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PostPosted: Wed 02 Sep 2009 12:34 AM 
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Speaking of which.
If we are to get into respray there´s about a ton of factors to be valued as i see it.
First of all this whole "nitro is better" hype.
Someone PLEASE explain to me why,and then be adviced-again-that i´m by NO means an expert on the subject but nor a novice.

That synthetics have a place i for one at least believe goes without saying.
They are about a ton simpler to work with,albeit they carry the drawback of being much harder to "repair".

That said next thing up would be the one of taint.
One often overlooked aspect by the "amatuer".
Now your ovation up there seems like straight forward clear to me,but take our Mats for instance...that more often than not aint.
The use of dye in clearcoat surely can make for rather cool effects,and this is an issue i believe should be discussed rather elaborately with the vendor in case.
Speaking of which...no...no,you do NOT respray with a spray bomb.
For a guitar you do so with a "touch up" spray gun of ample size(Ie,one of those hobby jobbies with compressed air in a can are out as well in my book).
What it takes is a small compressor of some sorts and a touch up gun.In fact,pick up a book or two on the subject for those so inclined and read up.
It aint all that hard as long as you follow the instructions to the letter and appreciate the fact that with paint prep is EVERYTHING.
To the letter.
Us amatuers..we still need the buffer afterwards as the new top coat has taken a set and hardened to reach the finish line...but that´s another story.


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PostPosted: Wed 02 Sep 2009 12:49 AM 
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Tell you what Barry...(i know i´m gettin tedious here)
With an axe of any vintage...nah...let me rephrase that.
Take my two masterpieces for instance.
Both of them are axes that indeed has seen service.
Hence they both show true signs of wear and both are indeed worn.

By buffing tech i can get them to withstand an examination that work to about a foot away.
Closer than that...it becomes all to evident what they´ve been through.
Like with your Ovation up there they both play and sound just fine...its just that the finish of them leaves something to be desired in MY book.
In short,somewhere along the line the call needs to be made if I find this an issue that needs to be adressed.
I for one always find it nice to "fondle"( :rofl: ) and use a well maintained guitar..but hey...somewhere the above point of diminishing return call needs to be made.
Both of my MPs...nope..they dont show signs of beltrash...they´re both to the letter worn through at the back.
If you take the last one i bought i´ve described to you guys the issues i´ve tried to handle,cause it sure seems to me like the topcoat has been basicaly completely contaminated by hasch or something the likes.Nope...it is NOT merely ciggarette smoke.
The MPs in turn are way harder as the topcoat of them are rather thin,and what´s more they seem to be finished in "french polishing".
A process where you fill up the top coat over time by "polishing" in layer after layer of paint.Normaly with shellac.
Guess what i´m saying is that i for one will be content with where they´re at today and leave it be as such.
Absolutely top grade guitars..that shows the rigors of time-as in essence any GOOD instrument SHOULD do.
Mojo... :wink: ...well you tell me...what i can tell you is that IF i ever feel it should be adressed...that would be a S-load of work.


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PostPosted: Wed 02 Sep 2009 10:32 AM 
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Thanks for the opinions guys, I appreciate it. Still confused as to what to do, but I appreciate it. :-?
Well, there's no way I'm dumb enough to attempt a full refinishing, or even a spot spraying. So that pretty much leaves me with either trying a possible minor fill & buffing or just leaving as is.

I'm still not clear on whether it's possible to repair or at least lessen the crazing using the drop-fill technique. I understand that you should have a clean cavity of some sort for the glue but I was wondering if it is at all possible that the glue might "creep" into the crevices by capillary action? It's a long shot I guess. The problem I see with this is that it may not penetrate to the full depth of the crack and would still show a line because of the clear finish??.
Racing wrote:
...but more importantaly one often forgotten factor with a buffer/die grinder is that the heat induced will to a degree "melt" the topcoat.
Interesting you said that, I was wondering about that very thing myself. Certainly on lacquer and even varnish that's a technique used to melt the new with the old coats. You say it can be done on paint also?
I'm wondering if there'd be any success on a clear cat-poly finish like this one, using only rubbing compound with a buffer (no glue)? Better than a total refinish?

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PostPosted: Wed 02 Sep 2009 01:03 PM 
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Yeah, but did you repair the cracks?


Nope. Like yours, it was more visible to me than anyone else. Character. . . :D


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PostPosted: Wed 02 Sep 2009 02:05 PM 
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It is a bit unusual for a catilized finish to check. If you do decide to sand it or even buff until it reflows, make sure you have a respirator that is rated for organic vapors (and no how to wear it) and do the job outside. Catalyzed finishes are very toxic even after they have cured. If it is just esthetic I would leave it.

Racing, about nitro; Nitro is usualy thinner and more flexible than poly type finishes which may make them better for acoustic guitars or hollowbody electric guitars. I doubt it makes much of a difference on an electric. For acoustics, french polish is considered even better from a tone perspective but it is time consuming to apply and rather fragile.


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PostPosted: Wed 02 Sep 2009 03:12 PM 
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Jorg wrote:
Nope. Like yours, it was more visible to me than anyone else. Character. . . :D
Yeah, there is that approach. It may yet win out in the end!
RSBBass wrote:
It is a bit unusual for a catilized finish to check.
Well, about that...I've been piecing together this guitar's history since I got it. It is an $800-900 guitar which I bought for $300, so I figured something might be up! The action was advertised as very high past the 5th fret which made me suspicious at the time. There was also a significant wood chip on the head stock. I took her to a luthier and it turns out that not only was the the neck bolt bent, but the heel was pulling away from the body--very unusual for an Ovation. It was only noticeable when he exaggerated the bow. It's a bloody wonder the guitar could be strung at all.

Long story short, I had the neck reset and epoxied! She plays beautifully now!
So the back story (I surmise) is that this humpty dumpty had a great fall, which smacked the head stock hard enough to break the heel away from the body, bend the mounting bolt, and screw up the action. That's why it was selling so cheaply.

In discussing this with you folks further here, I now am thinking that the fall may have also been the cause of this shattering of the finish too since it is on the same side as the head stock damage. Very likely, the more I think about it. :bawl:
Quote:
If you do decide to sand it or even buff until it reflows, make sure you have a respirator that is rated for organic vapors (and no how to wear it) and do the job outside. Catalyzed finishes are very toxic even after they have cured.
Thanks for that!
Quote:
If it is just esthetic I would leave it.
As stated above, it may just come to that! It's not a structural problem.

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